UFYB Bonus: De-Centering Romantic Relationships
from Your Life:
A Conversation with The Girls Gotta Eat Podcast
UnF*ck Your Brain with Kara Loewentheil
Welcome to Unf*ck Your Brain, the only podcast that teaches you how to
use psychology, feminism, and coaching, to rewire your brain and get what
you want in life. And now here’s your host, Harvard Law School grad,
feminist rockstar, and master coach, Kara Loewentheil.
Hello my chickens. I have two important things to tell you. The first is that I
enjoy this bonus episode with the host of Girls Gotta Eat which is a
sentiment that I always agree with. We talk a lot about being single,
choosing to have children versus choosing to remain childless, aging.
There’s just so many great topics in this episode that we’re going to dive
into.
But before we dive into all that I wanted to put on all of my chickens’ radar
that normally historically I have not really ever chosen to do public
speaking. We get a lot of requests all the time, of course and I generally
just have said no. That hasn’t been something that I’ve been prioritizing in
building my business, and in my lifestyle. But now that we are gearing up
for the release of my book next year, Take Back Your Brain. I am starting to
entertain speaking requests.
So, given my schedule and my kind of commitments, I’m not able to come
and speak for free to your book club, or something like that but. If you run
an organization or on the board of an organization or work in a corporation
or a school, a university, something like that and you have some budget for
speakers. I would love to hear from you and hear what you would like to
see me come and talk to your audience about. I can do more kind of
workshop format, I can do fireside speaker chats.
I can at the kind of higher investment level do more kind of traditional
keynote talks. Really just depends on what is the right fit and the schedule
and all of that. So this is something I am opening up now that we are
UFYB Bonus: De-Centering Romantic Relationships
from Your Life:
A Conversation with The Girls Gotta Eat Podcast
UnF*ck Your Brain with Kara Loewentheil
moving back towards the book. So I’m starting to book up my speaking for
2024 right now. And I want to hear from you if you have somewhere you’d
like me to come speak, please visit unfuckyourbrain.com/speaking, all one
word unfuckyourbrain.com/speaking and you can submit a request.
Tell us a little bit about who you want me to come speak to. What you want
me to talk about, what your budget is and we will figure out if it’s a good fit.
I am super excited to meet some of you in person, come share this work,
this life changing thought work with your colleagues, your direct reports,
your alumni club, your corporation, your university, your students, whoever
you’ve got, I want to come talk to them.
So unfuckyourbrain.com/speaking, come, submit your request. We’re
booking the first half of 2024 right now and maybe into the fall. And in the
meantime, until then let’s listen into this bonus conversation with the girls of
Girls Gotta Eat.
Kara: Hello, my chickens. I am here with two guests and I’m extremely
jealous because they have a hot pink neon sign with the name of their
podcast behind them. You can’t see it, but now I desperately want one. And
feel like I need to get one for behind me. So we’re already off to a good
start. So I am here today with Rayna Greenberg and Ashley Hesseltine,
who are the hosts of Girls Gotta Eat, which is such a good podcast name.
And my favorite thing about this name is just that it could be in so many
different things but we’re going to talk about what it actually means.
So I would love as I told them before we started, I think that women should
talk about their own accomplishments. So I would love to hear kind of how
UFYB Bonus: De-Centering Romantic Relationships
from Your Life:
A Conversation with The Girls Gotta Eat Podcast
UnF*ck Your Brain with Kara Loewentheil
you guys came to the podcast, how you started it and then tell us how big
and amazing it is.
Speaker: Thank you for having us. We’ll tell you it and we’ll also send you
the neon sign person [crosstalk].
Speaker: Yeah, we love her, this is her second version. We had to enlarge
it when we moved to LA because everything’s teeny, tiny in New York.
Speaker: Everything’s bigger in California.
Kara: I’m still in New York, so I need the mini version.
Speaker: You can have the mini version. We can just send you our old one.
Speaker: Yeah, you can have the old one if you want.
Speaker: You love the name.
Kara: Listen, whatever, I’m Girls Gotta Eat New York now, [crosstalk].
Speaker: Put it in your kitchen.
Kara: There you go. That’s a good one.
Rayna: Well, thank you for having us. I’m Rayna. And do you want to say
your [crosstalk]?
Ashley: Yes. I’m Ashley. I’m the nasally one today. We are both just a little
under the weather, but it’s fine. We’re clear, but yeah, We’re Girls Gotta Eat
Podcast. We’ve been doing a show about sex, dating, relationships for five
UFYB Bonus: De-Centering Romantic Relationships
from Your Life:
A Conversation with The Girls Gotta Eat Podcast
UnF*ck Your Brain with Kara Loewentheil
and a half years. We have been on tour for five years. It is really everything
we say from fetishes to finance. So if it applies to sex, dating, relationships,
we cover it.
Kara: They’re two of my favorite things, so I just really like that.
Speaker: Fetishes and money, us too.
Kara: Yeah. You just covered a lot of my interests right there so I like this.
Rayna: And Ashley always talks about our origin story. I’ll kick it to her. But
we met six years ago and the rest is history. And we in that time have
amassed an amazing audience and following and have incredible people
on the. And since launched a premium sex toy business in 2022 and that’s
our story.
Kara: I think that’s a good story. Yeah, well, let’s talk.
Rayna: Can I drop any numbers right now.
Ashley: I was trying to be humble. We have over 100 million downloads.
Kara: Yeah, don’t be humble. You have what?
Ashley: Yeah. Well, 160 plus sold out live shows internationally.
Kara: Amazing.
Ashley: Yeah. So Rayna is usually, she’s the numbers girl. But yeah, we
started this in February 2018 and we were newer friends. We had only met
a few months prior on this influencer trip. We were both doing this
UFYB Bonus: De-Centering Romantic Relationships
from Your Life:
A Conversation with The Girls Gotta Eat Podcast
UnF*ck Your Brain with Kara Loewentheil
influencer thing. My personal trajectory was writing to blogging to
Instagram. I had a parody comedy account. I was also doing stand-up
comedy and some TV and radio and different things like that. Podcasting
seemed like the next natural step for me.
And Rayna had her food blog, and she was in that world. And we both met
at a time when we really were trying to figure out the next step. I had
recently moved to New York. And was kind of not seeing the end of the
influencing income I was doing, but it was just I needed to pivot. And I felt
that the podcast was what I wanted to do. And I really wanted to talk about
dating and relationships and sex and that’s something I’d always been
really open about in my life.
And I met Rayna on this trip. We bonded immediately and we’re both kind
of talking about our careers and where we were. And we had a similar
lifestyle in terms of working for ourselves and creating content and being
really open in sharing our lives on the internet. And I just asked her to do
this podcast at the end of 2017. And it’s so funny because I still have the
text messages. It’s just this special thing I want to frame one day of me
being like, “Have you ever thought about a podcast?” And she was like,
“Yeah, I actually have.”
And I was like, “Would you be willing to share about your life and your sex
life?” And she’s like, “Yeah, duh. What do you think?” But it was kind of
funny because you don’t know for sure, you don’t know that someone’s
going to be like, “Wait a minute I thought I would, but my dad’s going to
hear this or people I grew up with, and I don’t want to be judged or shamed
or anything.” But it was no issues there.
Rayna: The opposite.
UFYB Bonus: De-Centering Romantic Relationships
from Your Life:
A Conversation with The Girls Gotta Eat Podcast
UnF*ck Your Brain with Kara Loewentheil
Ashley: Yeah, we took off running right away and the format has stayed the
same. I mean we still catch up, talk about our lives and have people tuning
in to see what’s going on with us. But we bring on guests and we do solo
episodes where we really tackle one topic. It’s never been this, let’s just
shoot the shit for an hour. So we have learned so much in the last five
years. We feel like we have all the knowledge in the world. We’ve
interviewed all the foremost experts. We’re complete experts ourselves
now and it’s just been such a fun journey.
Kara: I think any journey that ends in you launching your own sex toy line,
that worked out, that went well. That’s always a sign things are going in the
right direction.
Ashley: Absolutely. And if you’re like, “I’ve been in business with this
person for five years, let me start another business with her.”
Kara: [Crosstalk] renewing your vows or this marriage is going well, let’s
have a baby.
Rayna: Yeah. So we have a media company and we’re like, “Let’s start an
ecommerce and tech business together.” So it’s been a lot of learning and
a lot of fun and I feel really proud and honored and so does Ashley, to just
give people orgasms and enhance their sex lives.
Kara: So good. Alright, we’re going to get to where people can find the sex
toys at the end. So I feel like I have a couple of different things I want to
talk about with you guys. But they’re all circling around kind of something
that I think is really an overlap between our missions, which is telling the
truth about women’s lives and helping them make peace with whatever
choices they’ve made, even if those things are unconventional, or even if
UFYB Bonus: De-Centering Romantic Relationships
from Your Life:
A Conversation with The Girls Gotta Eat Podcast
UnF*ck Your Brain with Kara Loewentheil
those things are different. Not feeling like you have to fit into all the little
boxes that society tells you, you have to fit into.
So I kind of wanted to start talking about age. I know Ashley, you recently
turned 40 and you had an episode talking about the anxieties you had
around that, which I think is something that I see this in women I coach a
lot. That even women who sort of feel like, yeah, I feel I’m a feminist and
I’ve done my work on my body image. And I feel all empowered. And then
as they start approaching 40 or whatever age is that age to them. Those
old thoughts start to creep up. So I’d love to hear kind of what your anxiety
was about and kind of how you dealt with that.
Ashley: It was a combination of things swirling around in my head for why I
felt that. I for one, just didn’t feel like I identified with it. I was just like, “I’m a
girl in my 30s, thriving and being single and crushing it professionally and
doing all these things.” And I joke that you say girl in your 30s. You don’t
say girl in your 40s, you say woman in your 40s. And not that I think of
myself as a girl, but it was this hump and this next era. And there is part of
it just being a woman in entertainment and just value being placed on
youth.
And I don’t like to buy into that too hard, that certainly wasn’t the sole
reason. I think there are so many women crushing it, they’re in their 40s,
50s, 60s, 70s, whatever it is. You have Martha Stewart On the cover of
Sports Illustrated. I think things have certainly changed and all of the
women that I look up to and aspire to be are 40s and older but it was still
on my mind. I think that there are obviously double standards.
And even if we’re just talking about physical appearance, men get hotter
when they age and women are over here trying to fight time and gravity to
still be perceived as beautiful in society standards. So there was that,
UFYB Bonus: De-Centering Romantic Relationships
from Your Life:
A Conversation with The Girls Gotta Eat Podcast
UnF*ck Your Brain with Kara Loewentheil
you’re thinking, did I accomplish everything I wanted to by this age it just
was a big deal to me. I didn’t feel so much like this when I turned 30. It felt
like the end of something and the start of something new. And I really just
didn’t want to be single. I had loved being single, no one loved it more than
me.
I think it was the best time in my life. I think there’s so much power in being
single and creating this life for yourself and doing all the things and making
friends and thriving in your professional life and achieving success and all
the things that you do when you’re not in a romantic partnership. But I was
ready to start that next phase of life and be in love, and with somebody and
have a partner. So that was weighing on me too. I just felt like that would
make a difference. And it’s just what I wanted. I mean, I’ve been talking
about it since the beginning of the year.
This is the year I really want this deep down. I hadn’t really felt that prior.
So that was part of it. And it was just a bunch of different things and I
grappled with it because I wanted to be so excited. I wanted to really own it
and be so excited and just be posting on social media and inspire other
people the way that I felt when I saw Chelsea Handler turn 40 or Beyoncé
turn 40 or whoever it may be who you look up to. And I was like, “I want to
be that.” I wanted to get people excited to turn this age and not worry about
it.
And I got to that point and I was in a relationship. We really defined the
relationship right at the buzzer.
Kara: You were like, “Listen, I have a manifesting goal we’ve got to get to
[crosstalk].”
UFYB Bonus: De-Centering Romantic Relationships
from Your Life:
A Conversation with The Girls Gotta Eat Podcast
UnF*ck Your Brain with Kara Loewentheil
Ashley: It’s the most I’ve ever manifested everything, I can’t even believe it.
I had this feeling at the beginning of the year, I was like, “I think I’m going to
meet somebody right before I turn 40.” And that’s exactly when it
happened. We weren’t dating, but we had the conversation of we’re
together, we’re in a relationship, we’re committed on July 8
th
and my
birthday is July 9
th
. So it really worked out. And I just was like, “It’s my
personality, is always to own who I am and I want to be this person. I want
to be excited about it.”
And so I just kind of also had to decide, so much of it is just having to
change your own mind and choose to think about something in a different
way or a certain way and just really be true to yourself. So that was kind of
what did it for me and it is so genuine. Now I can’t bring it up enough. It’s
turned into this, all Ashley talks about us being 40.
Kara: So what do you think shifted? What are your thoughts about being 40
now?
Ashley: It’s funny when you look back and you thought something was a
big deal and then it’s not. I think that’s a lot of things. You’re like, “Why did I
care about that?” How dramatic was I? So part of it is just, what’s the big
deal. Part of is, I have just come into the place where I do want to be
someone that other people can look up to, the way that I looked up to
women who were older than me when they crossed over into 40. And I feel
like that. I see comments and I get messages and I’m like, “I really am in
that role that I wanted to be.”
And I also just achieved everything I want. I mean, there’s still much more
to do but I achieved a lot of success. I have a lot of love in my life. I’m with
this partner who I’m very much in love with and see a future with. And I
have Rayna and we have our businesses and it just felt like I’m really
UFYB Bonus: De-Centering Romantic Relationships
from Your Life:
A Conversation with The Girls Gotta Eat Podcast
UnF*ck Your Brain with Kara Loewentheil
happy at this point in my life, how can I not be so excited to have made this
life for myself and achieve this and embrace this age?
Kara: Do you have thoughts about this Rayna, do you struggle with kind of
thinking about aging and whatever age you are?
Rayna: I wouldn’t say it’s my story at the moment, ask me again on the
edge of my 40
th
birthday in a couple of years. But I think every woman
struggles with it. I remember being 23 and thinking, oh my God, I’m maybe
25 soon. That’s so old. I remember being 29 and thinking 30 means
something. I think every major milestone, everybody immediately takes
stock of their life and says, “Did I find the love I wanted? Did I find the
career I wanted, the friendship, the money? Am I good with my family?” I
think it’s everybody’s story around any milestone.
And we say this on the podcast constantly. The podcast is about sex,
dating, relationships, but it really, ultimately is about the relationship you
have with yourself and building this life you’re so proud of and I’ve done
that. So I hope that at every milestone, I’m really proud of where I’m at. And
I am single today, but I’ve been in really wonderful relationships with men
that respected me, loved me, dicked me down well. I’ve built a business
with somebody that I really…
Kara: [Crosstalk].
Rayna: [Crosstalk ], yeah. I’ve built a business with somebody I really love
and respect. And I feel like I’ve made a really positive mark on the world
and I try to be good to other people. So, at every birthday, I think we take
stock of our lives and you want to just feel like, have I checked a lot of the
boxes that I’m really proud of? And if you haven’t then you can start today. I
think that Ashley hadn’t been in a relationship in a while and she turned 40
UFYB Bonus: De-Centering Romantic Relationships
from Your Life:
A Conversation with The Girls Gotta Eat Podcast
UnF*ck Your Brain with Kara Loewentheil
and she met this incredible person who I love, who she loves, and it’s a
great relationship. And I hate to be like, “It’s never too late”, because 40 is
not that old.
Ashley: I know. We always want to tread carefully because it’s not, I hate
talking about [crosstalk].
Kara: I have a great uncle who met his second wife when he was 80, and
then he lived to be 94 and they had a great 14 years.
Rayna: Yeah. So I don’t subscribe to this it’s never too late. I mean,
sometimes you have to pivot and we certainly believe in that. And that goes
for the friends that you have around you, what you do in business, the type
of people that you’re going after romantically, but you can create a whole
new life for yourself tomorrow if you want to. I certainly didn’t seek out to
have a job in media. I had a food Instagram business. I really enjoyed the
social media aspect of it and photography and writing my blog.
But I never thought about having this podcast and now I think through
doing this I know that we’ve become these experts in this field. We, like
Ashley said, have interviewed everybody in psychology and writing and I’m
just so proud of what we’ve built. And now I’m an expert in that.
Kara: I think the reason women fear aging, is that we’re taught that our
value and our worth comes from how we look and conforming to these
conventional beauty standards. So it’s completely natural, because I think
women also then feel like they’re being a bad feminist or they shouldn’t feel
this way. But it’s totally natural if you’ve been taught that your sexuality and
your youth is the most important thing about you, that you’re going to fear
that. But I think what you’re saying is totally the antidote.
UFYB Bonus: De-Centering Romantic Relationships
from Your Life:
A Conversation with The Girls Gotta Eat Podcast
UnF*ck Your Brain with Kara Loewentheil
The way that you don’t fear aging is that you live a life that you feel good
about now. Where you are the person you want to be now and you are
having the impact you want to have now. So you’re not like, “Oh, God, the
expiration date is coming. My sell by date is ticking down and I’m not going
to have that value or that impact or that respect from the world or whatever,
when I hit that certain point.” Because you’re creating it for yourself.
Rayna: I do want to say something about the looks thing that you said. I
think it’s silly to not acknowledge that everybody cares about how they look
and there’s different levels to it of course. But we all want to feel beautiful
and confident and it would be silly to not admit that yes, of course I have a
feeling about how I look today versus how I looked when I was 25. But
Ashley and I both try to be really open about, yes, we get Botox or filler. I’ve
had veneers done. I’ve had my boobs done.
So I like to be honest about it, but both things can exist. You can be
nervous and maybe not confident all the time, but also still really like
yourself, both things can exist at the same time.
Ashley: And I always want to say that it’s easier for us in terms of children,
so I don’t want children, I never have. Rayna’s pretty certain, she still
wavers sometimes. But I really feel for women who are approaching a
certain age and really want children, it hits different. So I always want to
acknowledge that. And there is actually a biological clock and you’re
thinking about your fertility and your value there too. And that’s something
that has never had to cross my mind.
So I always just want to speak to that because you talk about women in
their late 30s, they’re turning 40 and if they want children, that’s the top
thing that they’re even thinking about, so just wanted to add that in.
UFYB Bonus: De-Centering Romantic Relationships
from Your Life:
A Conversation with The Girls Gotta Eat Podcast
UnF*ck Your Brain with Kara Loewentheil
Kara: Yeah. I think that socialization is really important there too though,
because it’s not just that we’re taught, we’re also taught there’s a certain
way you’re supposed to have children. That’s the way that counts. You
have to find that partner. And that sort of it all feeds into this narrative that
women get that basically, when they find the right person, mostly it’s for
straight women, man, or they find them. That’s going to sort of solve all of
these problems in your life. It’s going to solve the problem of who you’re
with. It’s going to solve the problem of having children. It’s going to solve
the problem with being socially acceptable.
So I feel for sure there may be different reasons that you’re worried about
aging, but I think always that solution is okay, if this is the life I want, if I
know I want kids then what’s my action plan? What do I need to believe
about what I’m capable of or how I can create that family? And how am I
going to do that versus sort of feeling I hope he comes along soon. I hope
that guy shows up and solves this problem for me.
I think that, I don’t know how you feel, I’d be curious to hear because I have
talked about this on the podcast before that I was single, I mean I had
relationships, but none of them were like I’m building a life with this person.
So there was always this, I think that one of the things I loved about that
that I really struggled with when I met my current partner, who I also met a
month before I turned 40. And I’d always thought I was going to meet my
partner when I was 40.
Speaker: I love that story.
Kara: [Crosstalk] that the same way was really mourning the loss of the
open-endedness of that in some way. I think there was something about
being single that felt like, well, this big thing about my life isn’t determined
yet. Who knows who I’ll end up with. And of course, you can have all these
UFYB Bonus: De-Centering Romantic Relationships
from Your Life:
A Conversation with The Girls Gotta Eat Podcast
UnF*ck Your Brain with Kara Loewentheil
different fantasies of what that’s going to look like. But it really felt
something big was undefined, which I actually think was part of what
feeling young felt like.
It was feeling like a big area of my life had not been decided yet whereas
now I’m like, “Okay, this is the person with all the things we love about him
and also the way that he chews or whatever my thing is that makes me
crazy.” This is the reality and now that’s kind of settled for a while. So I’m
curious, were you just like, “Yes, great. I feel amazing, I’m all in or did you
feel some conflict about that transition?”
Ashley: I love this question. For me it’s exactly how I wanted it. I wanted to
be a single icon in my 30s, and then I wanted to find a partner at 40. So it
worked out. I do feel like I manifested it. But I guess I struggle more talking
about marriage because I have a lot of thoughts on marriage and what it
really means and where its roots are. And I go back and forth because I am
who I am because of my parents’ marriage and they’re still married 45
years later, but they also have children. And I think there’s a lot of value in
getting married when you want to have children, have a family. So I look at
it two different ways.
For me personally, I was like, “I don’t want to buy into this. I don’t want to
be part of the engagement culture. And I’m not changing my name. I’m
going to have a prenup to protect my money. I don’t want to do this.” And I
always tread carefully because I have zero judgment for anybody that
wants to do everything traditionally when it comes to marriage,
engagements, bridesmaids, whatever the fuck you want. So this is just my
personal opinions. And I was like, “I just don’t think that’s me.”
And listen, I’m not engaged, but I have talked about this with my boyfriend
because these things, I think they’re important to talk about, kids, marriage,
UFYB Bonus: De-Centering Romantic Relationships
from Your Life:
A Conversation with The Girls Gotta Eat Podcast
UnF*ck Your Brain with Kara Loewentheil
where you want to live. Those are kind of the three main things and it’s
important to him. And I was like, “I would do it.” I really care for him. If it
goes in that direction it’s something that I would definitely consider and
probably end up doing. And I would do it my way and make it work for me,
for us. But that was more of the thing that I struggled with, I was like, “I just
don’t want to be a wife.”
Kara: Really there’s so much baggage with that term. That term totally,
actually last week’s episode of the podcast was, I just did two episodes
about my ambivalence about getting engaged and getting married. We are
engaged and getting married, but I feel very ambivalent about it. But yeah, I
do not think of myself as a wife, that’s such a culturally loaded term.
Ashley: Yeah, but I joke, I told my boyfriend one time, I was like, “It’s so
embarrassing to be a fiancé.” And he was like, “What is that statement?”
There’s something about it. So I don’t know. It worked out for me. Rayna
can speak to this also. But I really liked being single for most of my 30s. I
really liked having Rayna as my partner, really cultivating this circle of
female friends we have. And being on this professional journey together
and traveling the world and doing all these things. And then really kind of
hitting a point where I’m entering kind of a new phase in life and now this is
who I am now.
Rayna: I like that you talk about mourning your singledom. I don’t think we
hear that term applied to women very often. I think that we apply it to men
all the time. But it’s so hard for men to come around to be in a relationship.
But I am somebody who really likes my alone time. I really, really need it. I
regenerate from it. I like to sit outside at night by myself on my porch and
read a book. I like to spend long periods of time by myself. I like to go
where I want to go, when I want to do it. I want to make friends. I want for
plan for friends’ last minute.
UFYB Bonus: De-Centering Romantic Relationships
from Your Life:
A Conversation with The Girls Gotta Eat Podcast
UnF*ck Your Brain with Kara Loewentheil
I get a little anxious when I have too many plans, I have to commit to too
many things, I can’t relax. So it is hard for me to think about dropping all
that for another person. But the people that I have dated and have been
really in love with, fold really seamlessly into that.
Kara: [Crosstalk] my partner just basically lets me do what I want and
that’s why.
Rayna: Yeah, because I think that you can provide a lot of value when you
aren’t needing me time. I plan really fun things. I have great friends. What I
do for a living is really exciting. You can be a part of it, Ashley and I do live
shows. You can come to the live shows, when I will let you in, which is
most of the time, it is really fun, but I do need space. And anybody that I’ve
had really great relationships with is usually pretty similar. They want their
own downtime too. They want their space, they enjoy being a part of my life
and my friends when they are a part of it.
So, I think it’s always about just finding somebody who folds into your
brand of craziness, neediness, alone time-ness. And I think that when you
find those people, it feels easy. And I’ve dated people where I’ve said, it’s
trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, they won’t do it and it feels
unnatural. And as much as they maybe look good on paper, you kind of
have to abandon those people if you just keep trying and they don’t fit into
your life the way that you need to.
Kara: Yeah. I mean, I feel there are so few models of what are different
ways of having these relationships. I mean (a) we live in New York City, so
rent is insane, (b) he has children half the week. And I think I wanted to live
together at least in the beginning, but I could totally see us in 20 years
being we have two houses next to each other.
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Speaker: That’s my dream. Living together is a whole another animal.
Kara: And your house could be [crosstalk] and you just come over to my
house, which is nothing is ever out of order in here and I don’t have to
[crosstalk].
Speaker: Yes, small spaces are really hard and I’m really attentive about
my house, I just am. I like things exactly as I left them. I tidy up constantly. I
like to clean. I like to cook and clean everything before I eat. I just, I’m a
little anal retentive about where stuff is. And I did live with somebody in
New York City, I’ve lived with three people in my life. One was very short
lived and it was because the apartment was so small. And just after COVID
time so many people were working from home. So I would leave the house
in the morning to go to our studio down the street.
He’d be there and I’d come back and he’d be there and I would just be like,
“I don’t get any free time” I mean I don’t know what people with kids do. I
was like, “I don’t have any free time from you, let alone children.”
Kara: Yeah, I think about Frida Kahlo and Diego Rivera. Is that right? Yeah.
They had a compound where they each had a wing and then there was
[crosstalk].
Speaker: That’s the dream. I want a walkway like an airport.
Kara: Yeah, a walkway, that is the dream.
Speaker: I mean I’ve talked about this with my boyfriend. This is part of my
personality is not wanting to live together. And I think we will get there
eventually. But you need space. It wouldn’t be in the house I’m in now. I
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just think and I’ve always said my dream is just to live in the same
neighborhood, just date forever, come over, spend the night.
Kara: Yeah. And women aren’t, as Rayna was saying, it’s very culturally
accepted for men to be into their bachelor phase and to think men want
space, even though of course all the statistics show that marriage is better
for men than for women. But the cultural trope is still that men have to be
somehow lassoed and then corralled into it or somehow tricked or
whatever. But I feel women are socialized to think, okay, well, once you’re
in a couple, if you become a wife, now you have this enmeshed identity.
Now you have the subservient identity as opposed to encouraging women
to think, yeah, you might love somebody and not want to live with them, not
want to cook for them, not want to do their laundry.
Speaker: I don’t want to be woken up by them. I’m a light sleeper. I can’t
have you rolling around in the bed.
Kara: Oh my God, don’t get me started on this.
Rayna: You know what my perfect scenario is? So I live in a house, there’s
a wall between the house. It’s two houses and there’s this gorgeous man
that lives on the other side of the wall and he has an entrance on one street
and I have an entrance on the other street. So we don’t have to see each
other going in and out. But if I want to ever have a drink with somebody at
night, I text him. He comes over sometime and hangs out with me and
Ashley and the dogs during the work day. I love looking at him and having
him around. That’s my perfect relationship.
Kara: So you’re already in your perfect relationship.
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Rayna: We don’t sleep together, but once we start sleeping together, it’s
on.
Kara: That’s like one little tweak, you’re so close.
Ashley: That’s so funny.
Kara: But I think for people listening, I mean one interesting exercise you
can do is to ask yourself, what would my ideal scenario look like? If I wasn’t
worried about money and I wasn’t worried about what my mom would think
and I wasn’t worried about whatever, what would be my ideal scenario? Is it
living together? Is it being on two sides of a house? Is it living across town
and seeing each other twice a week? I think women don’t take the time or
even feel the idea is possible of thinking through what is an alternative way
of doing these things.
My partner, definitely when he approached me for moving in like he was
trying to like attract a feral cat that he had to very slowly and gently.
Speaker: It’s important to see people doing it differently. I mean I think a lot
of our friends, Hannah Berner, who’s a comedian, podcaster.
Kara: Yeah, she’s been on my podcast.
Speaker: She’s incredible and she’s really of this whole deprioritize men
from your life. And she’s married and she has her own apartment and she’s
decorated it the way she wants. And I think they’re next door to each other.
I think they live in the same building. And I think it’s nice to see people to
look up to, because some of these things are on the newer side. They
shouldn’t be so novel. It shouldn’t be so crazy that a woman would want to
have her own space, or that she’s not just with her partner all the time.
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But I think it’s nice to have role models, for lack of a better word, to be like,
“I can do that. That’s working for them. That’s really cool and they seem
happy and healthy.” And so it’s just so important to share these stories so
people don’t feel like they’re crazy or weird for wanting to do things
‘differently’ than it’s always been done.
Kara: I mean, how many marriages would maybe actually not have to get
divorced if they just knew that they could move out and live separately?
Speaker: I think it’s a new idea also. I think that of course, if you have
children you should live together, it’s each to their own. But it’s nice to grow
up in a two parent household. And I think it’s a newer thing for women to
even be so open about not wanting children. For couples to be open about
not wanting children. I always say more and more I’m finding men on dates
that either say to me that they don’t want children at all or that they would
just defer to their partner.
I’m finding this more and more as I get older, that I don’t meet as many
men as I used to that are like, “Yes, it’s a foregone conclusion, I will have
children.” It’s a newer thing to come around to this idea that you don’t live
together because you don’t have children to raise together in the home.
Kara: Well, I think even if you have children [crosstalk]. Listen, I’m a co-
parent half the time so I’m in this situation. But also every single divorce
person I know who has kids is basically like, “Obviously this wasn’t how I
wanted to get here, I didn’t go into it assuming this, but this is by far a
superior way to parent.” Part of the problem with parenting is the
unrelenting this of the caretaking and a total lack of any time to yourself.
So if you’re splitting the week with somebody, I mean, my partner talks
about this. It’s so different. I didn’t want kids. I was childless by choice and I
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ended up partnering with somebody with children. And none of the things
that I was worried about turned out to be wrong. It is unrelenting when it’s
happening. I can see even myself, how fucking insane I would feel if I didn’t
know that there was, and I love these kids, but that I didn’t know that there
was a break coming every week.
And all my friends I know who have gotten divorced, my partner, all my
friends, obviously they miss their kids. They love their kids and they weren’t
trying to end up in this situation. But it’s just partly a testament to how
parenting has become so siloed. We don’t have the village. We don’t have
the extended care networks. People aren’t living with three generations of
family who can help. So most parents these days, it’s just them and it’s all
the time. And so I don’t know, I feel like, what if you’re married and have
kids and you still want to live apart and trade the kids every once in a
while?
Speaker: Love that.
Speaker: And then the kids get to be like, “I have two houses.”
Kara: You can do that also.
Speaker: They get to brag at school. I have two houses.
Speaker: I love this idea.
Kara: Maybe [crosstalk] four nights a week and then one night a week
you’re each off and go to the other. There’s a lot of options.
Rayna: Well, we did that growing up. My parents divorced when I was four,
and my mom really was the school parent, of course. And she was the
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responsible one Sunday through Thursday, that made sure we did our
homework. And my dad took us on the weekends. And he was a great
parent and loved to do so, took us to baseball games instead of the library
and the museum. But yeah, they each got a break. And I was really lucky
that my dad chose to live down the street from my mom.
And I didn’t really know that much about their relationship. I heard some
stuff about money growing up, but nothing so terrible. And I think that I was
really lucky to grow up with two people that decided to not hate each other
in the same home. My dad was there all the time. My stepdad couldn’t
stand it. But my dad was unrelentingly at the house. He would go into the
fridge, eat some food, take a shit for 30 minutes.
Ashley: He still does that.
Rayna: It was crazy.
Ashley: He still does that.
Rayna: Yeah, my mom hates it.
Ashley: He lives down the street.
Rayna: He does, he lives down the street from my mom, it’s very funny,
and her husband of 25 years. But I love that idea. I’ve never heard anybody
describe parenting as unrelenting but I like the notion of it. I always say my
aversion to having children is that I had a really wonderful upbringing, so
did Ashley, my parents were really wonderful. And I don’t know that I want
to do the things for somebody that my parents did to make my life so
wonderful.
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Kara: Yeah, relentless. That’s how I think about it because it is, it feels like
somebody needs you all the time. And that goes on for much longer than
you maybe would think that it would age wise. And even if once they get to
be teenagers, okay, they don’t need you, but they still do in the sense that
you can’t, you still have to be thinking about them and concerned about
them and figuring out what’s going on and making sure they eat or clean
their room or whatever.
But especially when they’re young, I think I just knew for me, the sensory
overload of that was going to be so intense. And it’s not like an adult where
you can just be like, “I need a break. I’m going in the other room” and
closing the door. So I don’t know. That’s definitely my experience of
[crosstalk].
Speaker: I’m just curious, a client of you, you don’t know. I’m curious what
your partner is it a joint custody?
Kara: Yeah, it’s close to 50, I mean, a week can’t be spent exactly 50/50
because of having, it’s four nights, three nights. But yeah, it’s every week
we have them for half the week or one-third plus, half of a quarter,
whatever it would be. It’s three nights a week. Yeah, so we have them half
the time.
Speaker: But do you live together now?
Kara: Yeah, we all live together.
Speaker: You do? Okay.
Kara: So my partner and I live together. Yes, I got trapped like a feral cat,
very willingly.
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Speaker: That’s right, the whole, yeah, okay, [crosstalk].
Kara: That brought in the little treats and a real hands off approach and
then all of a sudden there I was.
Speaker: And then there’s kids in there and you’re like, “How did this
happen?” I’m just kidding.
Kara: All the time. No, I mean because we also moved pretty quickly. I
mean we were older when we met. He was 52 when we met, he had
already been married once. I was 40 and I think we did start out being
supposedly casual, but pretty quickly it wasn’t. And then when somebody
has kids also, it’s a much higher stakes thing to be like, “Are we doing
this?” So it was pretty fast. But yeah, so two years ago, I was living in
Morningside Heights by myself, essentially single, I mean, four months ago,
two years ago, single.
Being like, “I don’t know, maybe I’ll marry some guy in Paris and move
there.” And then now I, yes, now I live with a man and his children,
[crosstalk]. A lot has happened in the last two years. I’ll talk about it when I
come on your podcast, just a lot happened there.
Speaker: I’m really interested in it. We have a girlfriend who is dating
somebody who is recently divorced and has two young children. And she’s
just sort of navigating what does that mean? And how am I allowed to fit in
there? And she had said, “He’s having dinner with his ex and her parents
and what does that mean?” And I was like, “They’re doing it for the kids. It’s
just for the kids. It’s not romantic thing.” But I’m curious how you sort of
navigate all of that. I find it really interesting.
Kara: I mean, that’s a big conversation.
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Speaker: Yeah, we’ll have you on our podcast, we’ll do this, [crosstalk].
Kara: [Crosstalk] on the podcast, but we could talk about it there. I would
say that we have it as good as you could have it in terms of the kids being
accepting, it’s all amicable and it’s still fucking complicated. I’m not just
marrying you, I’m marrying your children and I’m basically marrying your
ex-wife. And it’s the thrapple you didn’t want. You’re just now just involved
with this person. This person is now basically part of your family who your
partner isn’t even married to anymore.
So it’s a weird, that part is definitely, I think, to me that feels, obviously, the
children themselves are the biggest difference, but also the sort of having
your life be very impacted with and integrated with this third person that you
didn’t choose. That part’s very weird.
Speaker: Okay, well, I’m excited to talk about it with you on our show
because we get we get that a lot. We get that question a lot, dating
someone with kids.
Kara: Here’s what I’ll tell you, be careful when you tell yourself, this is just
casual. It’s never going to, I mean he’s got kids, and I don’t want kids. So
nothing’s going to happen. It’s fine. And then six weeks later, he’s telling
you he loves you and then this is what happens. There you are, you end up
there.
Okay, I have other questions. I’m just trying to think about what I want
[35:59]. I think the last thing I kind of want to touch on, because I do feel
like my listeners, I felt this also. There’s not just grief about mourning the
singlehood. But I mean you talked a little bit about this Ashley, being like, “I
was just icon of singleness, now I’m in a relationship.” And you wanted that.
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transition. But I did feel a little like I’ve taught so much around this thought
work around being single and how to fall in love with being single.
And now I’m like, “And now I’m getting married to a man, which is the most
heteronormative thing I could do.” That was a weird mind fuck. So I want to
make sure we talk about something other than that also. I think you
referred to Rayna as your partner in your 30s. And I feel like I have a friend
who I feel is my platonic soul mate and is a partner in that way.
We don’t live together but I’d love to hear kind of what your thoughts are
around, how artificially we construe partnership romantically, what it’s been
like having a very significant friendship, work relationship like really having
a partner who’s not a [crosstalk] romantic partner.
Speaker: [Crosstalk].
Kara: Who’s not what?
Speaker: What did you say?
Speaker: A very significant, non-romantic other.
Ashley: Well, what is it, OSOs, other significant others. We’ve talked about
this with Logan Ury on our podcast and the clip went crazy. It’s not the
hottest take, but to put a name to it and kind of people would be like, “I
have that.” So, I don’t know, it works out. We’re late 30s, 40 I think
sometimes those relationships are a little harder to navigate in your 20s.
You’re younger, you have a best friend and you’re running around living
your best 20s life and partying and dating. And then they get in a
relationship and it can be kind of hard.
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I mean, I’ve ran into that. I was always the single friend and you just
change, you grow up and you realize that your friendships ebb and flow.
And it doesn’t mean that they are over or they’re even going to change
drastically, long term. So I think a lot of it is just maturity and growth and
having someone who’s on the same page. Rayna just gets it, the same that
I was when she was in a relationship. And I don’t know. I think I’m
navigating it well, just like you did and you would the next relationship you
get in.
Kara: This is like a couple counseling reality moment, then Rayna is like
[crosstalk].
Ashley: No, we get this question a lot, people saying, “What happens, one
of you get in a relationship? And a few people recently that we’re really
close with, two of them have asked me, “What has it been like? Are you still
getting attention?” And yes, I’ve been in a long term serious relationship
during this podcast also. I mean, first of all, the business always comes
first. Nothing’s ever going to be more important to me than Girls Gotta Eat.
And yes, of course, love is important and people are important, but what
we’ve built is really…
Kara: But I think that’s so important, can we just pause? Women are not
taught that they can say that. You’re supposed to always be like, “Of
course, my husband and my family would be the most important thing.” And
I once went around this table of coaches at a business conference we were
at. And I was like, “If you had to break up with your partner or close your
business, what would you do?” And most of them were like, “Oh, shit, I
would get rid of my husband.”
Ashley: Anybody can get a husband, not everybody can build this empire.
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Rayna: Well, I mean of course, the business comes first but what I’m also
saying is I come first and if I’m happy, then I can be a better partner. If I feel
successful and fulfilled then I can be a better partner. And yeah, Girls Gotta
Eat is always going to come first, but we’re just really, really lucky. We don’t
really get sick of each other. When we do, we just take a little break. We
were just away for 10 days and we spent the whole day together yesterday.
And we know how to work together really well and when we need to take a
pause from each other.
But I really was thinking about your questions before we got on today and
thinking what has the difference been in our relationship? But I don’t know.
I don’t really feel it that much. I root for her. I want to give her space to be in
love and be in a relationship. Having social plans has always been really
important to both of us and we still continue to do those things. And we
have lots of friends that are married, that have children, that are in long
term relationships that we see all the time solo. I don’t feel any lack of
attention to myself, my friendship with her or the business since she’s been
in a relationship.
And maybe that came up a little bit when I was in a relationship, I think
maybe I was not giving as much attention to the business as I had been
because I’d been single for so long. But we talked about it and I refocused.
So I think that that we can always make missteps as long as you’re willing
to look at your own behavior and acknowledge it, then you can move
forward from it. But I really was thinking about your question this morning
and I don’t know. I haven’t felt much difference in our relationship. If I didn’t
like the person I would feel a difference.
Ashley: Yeah, I mean it’s him too though. He knew this coming in. He knew
the show. We met at a live show, met at a live show. I mean he knew
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Rayna had been so important. He has just stopped at nothing to win Rayna
over.
Kara: [Crosstalk] non-monogamous, he knew you had a partner already.
And he’s like, “I’ve got to fit in.”
Ashley: Exactly. It makes me love him more. And we’re long distance. So to
Rayna’s point, that’s part of it too. Although I think if we were in the same
city it wouldn’t change much. And then he would be here all the time and I
wouldn’t have to, and now I have to have a whole schedule of when I’m
seeing him. I’ve just sent it to Rayna. She has to be on the calendar invites
and all that stuff. So I really love how much he knows how important she is.
He sent her flowers to our show. He’s coming here this weekend.
He’s like, “I can’t wait to see Rayna.” I’m like, “What?” He really has made
that effort. The worst thing in the world would be them being at odds. I can’t
even picture that. I don’t think that that would be someone I would be in a
relationship with in the first place. So I don’t know. We’re all one big happy
family, but we’re grown, we’re grown ass people. Again, I think it’s a little
trickier to navigate when this hits you for the first time when you have that
best friend and they get partnered up.
And I just want to say to people listening that are dealing with that, I really
think friendships ebb and flow. And I think that when people first get in a
relationship and especially when you’re younger, it just is all consuming.
And certainly you don’t want someone that’s a friend that just drops you the
second they get in a relationship. That’s not a friend that you want. If you’re
someone that values friendships and realize that female friendships are
what make our lives so important, they’re our existence. And if someone
doesn’t feel that way, that’s probably not someone you want to be friends
with in the first place.
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But it’s a mix. It’s realizing that that’s just how it is and you want that same
grace when you get into a relationship as well. And that was sort of my
story with my more serious relationship when I was 30, early 30s of, I felt
like the last single girl. And then when I got in this relationship, no one gave
me any shit. I was with him all the time. He was my priority and no one ever
was like, “Been there, done that.” It was kind of nice. It was just I didn’t
have anyone to answer to.
I didn’t have any friends that felt neglected. They were all partnered up and
they had just done that already and they were like, “Just let her fly. Let her
just be with him all the time.” And I still had a balance, but it’s just one of
those, it’s the circle of life.
Kara: You can find partners that are respectful of those relationships
[crosstalk].
Rayna: I’m glad that you brought that up, and it’s age, it’s the relationship
that you’re in and it’s the person that you’re in the relationship with. And to
zoom out just from our relationship, we should all be picking partners that
really encourage us to have other things in our lives because loving me
means loving Ashley. It means loving my family. It means loving my friends
and you don’t have to be with my friends all the time.
We could do it sporadically, but I think that we should all have partners that
encourage us to have other good relationships in our lives. And to love
Ashley means to want to have a relationship with me because it’s important
to him that it’s important to her. And that’s one of the reasons why, I mean,
I also just like him. I think he’s smart and funny and cool, but he treats my
friend really well and it’s important to him that we’re friends. And I have
certainly had relationships mostly in my 20s with people that my friends
didn’t really want to be around and it was a real problem.
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And I think we grow out of those things, but it can make you feel really
isolated when you have a partner that maybe you have to lie to other
people about a little bit, that doesn’t treat you well, that breaks up your
friendships. I’ve certainly lost friends over partners that they’ve had, it’s
extremely painful. I know that it can happen. And it is also hard in your 20s
and early 30s when you’re in love for the first time, all you want to do is be
with that person and you’re like, I don’t care about other people.”
Kara: What are friends? I don’t remember.
Rayna: You’re like, “I don’t care about you. I’ll catch you on the next round.”
So it’s a balance. And if you slip, you can always just acknowledge it. You
can always go to your friends and be like, “I know I’ve been a little self-
involved with myself and this relationship, but it’s important to me to hang
out more so I’m going to do that with you more.” And like Ashley said, these
things ebb and flow. Just because you’re in an ebb doesn’t mean you can’t
get back to the flow.
Kara: I love it. I mean, I think I kind of want to close on that point. I mean
we talked about this a little, but it’s just so women are just not taught to
think this way of you’re the center of your life. And you can choose which
thing is the center of your life. Maybe it’s your business. Maybe it’s your
platonic partnership. Maybe it’s your romantic partnership. But just giving
yourself that, even ask yourself that question. What is the most important
commitment in my life, or what’s the most important project in my life or
what do I want to be the center of my life?
Versus, well, it’s supposed to be a romantic relationship or supposed to be
parenthood or it’s supposed to be whatever else. I mean, how many
politicians, women politicians or CEOs, do you hear, say, “Well, being a
mom is the most important job I’ll ever have.” And no fucking dudes are out
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there, the CEO of JPMorgan is not like, “Being a dad is the most important
job I’ll ever have.”
Speaker: No man has ever said it.
Kara: [Crosstalk] multinational financial corporation, being the president is
the most important job I’ll ever have.
Speaker: Yeah, so I really, truly believe my dad does feel like that.
Speaker: I think my brother feels like that, yeah.
Kara: I think some men feel like that. I just don’t think we require it. My
partner definitely feels like being a dad is the most important thing he’ll ever
do. There are men who feel like that but they’re not required to say that
when they actually have the most important job in the world.
Speaker: They don’t say it. I’ve never heard my dad say that.
Kara: Whereas the first woman president is going to have to be like, “Being
a mom is always my most important job.” And you’re like, “It’s definitely not.
You’re in charge of the whole country.”
Speaker: Being the president is hard, but being a mom is harder.
Kara: No. I don’t think that’s true.
Speaker: So funny. I’ve never been the president or a mom so I can’t speak
to it.
UFYB Bonus: De-Centering Romantic Relationships
from Your Life:
A Conversation with The Girls Gotta Eat Podcast
UnF*ck Your Brain with Kara Loewentheil
Kara: Well, listen, I don’t know, I’ve been a part-time mom, a sort of
stepmom and it’s challenging, but I don’t think it’s like being the president.
Anyway, that’s another whole soapbox. Tell people where they can find
you, where they can find your sex toys? We have a lot of places to go.
Speaker: You can find everything about Girls Gotta Eat at
girlsgottaeat.com. We are on tour through the year. We are in the Texas,
the Southeast, the West Coast, we’re going to end in New York and
Toronto for the holidays. So get tickets, our tour, our shows are so wild.
They’re not like a live podcast. We don’t record them and they’re just like a
circus and they’re so much fun. They’ll be the best night of your life, just a
wild [crosstalk] on steroids. Yeah. I just want to be clear, we’re not sitting
there and doing this.
Speaker: Esther Perel’s not there, yeah.
Ashley: It’s insane. There’s just dancers and strippers and CO2 cannons
and t-shirts flying through the air, everything. So they’re wild. So
girlsgottaeat.com for those tickets. You can listen to the podcast where you
find podcasts. And then Girls Gotta Eat Podcast on Instagram. I’m
@AshHess, Rayna is @rayna.greenberg and vibesonly.com.
We have so many new products that we just launched for fall. We have the
vibrators. We have a paired app, they all connect with the toys via
Bluetooth. We have blow gel if you want to step up your oral sex game. We
just dropped pumpkin spice for fall. And we have all the things that it’s just
a really fun company and again, there’s this very cool tech component.
Your partner can control your vibrator from anywhere in the world, so great
for a long distance relationships.
Kara: Or you can control your partner’s vibrator.
UFYB Bonus: De-Centering Romantic Relationships
from Your Life:
A Conversation with The Girls Gotta Eat Podcast
UnF*ck Your Brain with Kara Loewentheil
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Kara: I’m going to be dying about pumpkin spice oral gel now for a while.
Speaker: Yeah, we’ll send you one. We’ll follow up, get your address, we’ll
send you. We have really fun vibrators, whatever you’re into.
Kara: [Crosstalk] for show. I’m like [crosstalk].
Speaker: We give away vibrators at the show, too. But whatever you’re into
and whatever you want. If you want a butt plug, if you want a rabbit, if you
want to clit sucker, whatever you want, we’ve got it.
Kara: Amazing. Thank you for coming on.
Speaker: Thank you so much.
Speaker: Thanks for having us.
Speaker: We loved this.
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